[Thorn]

You've completely misunderstood me. The full rule would be something along the lines of "In areas with respawning enemies, you cannot achieve a combo of more than ___." I am NOT saying you cannot hit respawning enemies at all. I'm simply proposing a limitation to how often. Set the blank at a number that still lets you finish off the Big Mother or whatever with your low-strength werehog and permits accidental hits, but that gives a low enough combo bonus to not be much different than killing the Big Mother quickly and saving Time Bonus points.

eh maybe that would work... but saying "you can't get a combo higher than x" still doesn't limit how many times you can get that combo.

Then phrase it in terms of total combo bonus earned instead of the combo itself. Voila.

Having two charts would require people's stats to be wiped? One chart would allow the glitch, the other wouldn't. There's been a slew of people around TSC asking for shortcut/non-shortcut divisions, and this seems even more practical due to the fact that it's using two different "versions" of the same level, as you put it.

No, but banning a trick that the best stats have to use because it was patched out and then wiping the charts would. >_>

Then don't wipe them, and have both, or something. This point still all comes down to whether you consider patches to be equivalent to separate, released versions of the game, and since neither of us are budging, we're going nowhere.

* Thorn moves on to the next point.

The fact that the game's been around for a while dictates whether or not new charts can be added? We've added Special charts for Rush, Heroes, and Chaotix long after charts for said games were first created. While there's not a whole lot of competition, what little there is is from the people who care about competing in the game (champions, high-ranked people, and people who just plain like the game). We're not here to pamper to the people who stopped competing in a game, we're here to cater to those that are competing in it right now.

No, I'm referring to new releases. Just thinking if a new version of a game came out where much lower times were possible long after the original came out it wouldn't seem fair to track them on the same charts... but there's also not much point to having separate charts for every single different version of a game (I'm thinking we'd have Sonic 1, Sonic 1 Cell Phone, Sonic 1 GBA, etc...).

I was making that statement regarding the Sonic 3D versions, though, not new releases. The Unleashed DLC was an example of new charts for a game not garnering much interest, as a response to you being against adding full Sonic 3D charts.

[Groudon]

You've completely misunderstood me. The full rule would be something along the lines of "In areas with respawning enemies, you cannot achieve a combo of more than ___." I am NOT saying you cannot hit respawning enemies at all. I'm simply proposing a limitation to how often. Set the blank at a number that still lets you finish off the Big Mother or whatever with your low-strength werehog and permits accidental hits, but that gives a low enough combo bonus to not be much different than killing the Big Mother quickly and saving Time Bonus points.

eh maybe that would work... but saying "you can't get a combo higher than x" still doesn't limit how many times you can get that combo.

Then phrase it in terms of total combo bonus earned instead of the combo itself. Voila.

Remember that you cannot see your total combo bonus until after you finish the level.

[Thorn]

^ Your bonus for a specific combo shows up as soon as you achieve the bonus. For example, as soon as you get, say, 11 hits, the game displays a message under the combo counter saying "BONUS     100". The cap wouldn't be ridiculously high, so if your combo does break and you can't figure out if multiple combos summed together exceed the cap, you probably belong at a Sonic site with a lower average IQ. :P

EDIT: Maybe my wording isn't clear. The combo bonus cap is what you earn against a specific respawning situation (Big Mother, Rexes, whatever), not for the entire level.

[Parax]

Then phrase it in terms of total combo bonus earned instead of the combo itself. Voila.

Like Groudon said you can't see it until you finish the level, and it would vary greatly based on level because levels are not exactly the same in terms of how long they are/how many enemies there are/what enemies.

I was making that statement regarding the Sonic 3D versions, though, not new releases. The Unleashed DLC was an example of new charts for a game not garnering much interest, as a response to you being against adding full Sonic 3D charts.

I'm not against S3DB having special stage charts if there's a decent way to implement them.

[Thorn]

^ Regarding your first point, see my previous post.

[Stefan]

Thorn, I have one argument.

Hot Shelter - Gamma.

[Thorn]

^ Gamma's time bonus went UP while you executed the trick, and hit a maximum score. This does neither.

Regardless, I've already given up the argument, as it's become FKE+Parax+DsS+Groudon vs. me. They can do what they will with it.

What I do want to know is why it's legit to score scalp in Hill Top in a similar manner, but not Lava Reef. Hell, any level in Sonic Advance 2 lets you score scalp by doing midair actions over and over, and I see no ruling on that.

[Stefan]

"^ Gamma's time bonus went UP while you executed the trick, and hit a maximum score. This does neither, so it's not really the same situation: you're trading one type of score bonus for another."

I fail to see your point with gamma's time bonus; my argument is that this case is extremely similar to the HS-G time charts we ended up obsoleting because instituting arbitrary limitations was effectively impossible. Of course the time bonus went up; I'm not comparing HS-G score and these scores, I'm comparing HS-G time and these scores. Either you
a.) Leave it how it is, leaving potential for maximum scores of 99:99:59 and 999999 respectively.
b.) institute arbitrary limits. In the case of HS-G it was you can't hit a switch more than once, you're proposing an -extremely- difficult to word rule about the maximum combo points in a particular region comboed off healed or respawned enemies. This was the HS-G case for several months before we realized that the rule was impossible to enforce, difficult to play effectively, and not stirring competition.
c.) Obsolete the levels with score scalping techniques. This is the current case with HS-G. Keep in mind, it was extremely possible to make a rule imposing a limit on the maximum scalping you can do in the level, but that didn't keep competition or make the chart seem reasonable.

If you impose an arbitrary limit on how much you can scalp from combos in a certain part of a level (each one would have to be individually defined in the rules), then you just get infinite scores up to that point. If you're playing through werehog levels for score, especially on level 1 strength, you're probably not getting a huge time bonus. The lost time for scalping is not going to be too consequential.

Anyway, this situation is entirely similar to HS-G. In HS-G, doing a particular, entirely innocent, unavoidable action repeatedly provided for infinite statistics (in this case time, but I'd say it's very comparable to scores because of the way it increases through actions). In this situation, doing a particular, innocent, unavoidable action repeatedly can get you infinite statistics (or at least to the maximum tsc is capable of displaying scores.

Do you want to handle the two cases differently?

Also, in that little side argument going on:

Do we ban the final egg sonic trick in sa1 because sonic team patched it in sadx? You can't reach the capsule in sadx because sonic team made minor changes to the level that only affect whether or not that particular exploit can be carried out. It is this that paraxade is drawing the version difference comparison from. And, to be honest, I entirely agree with him.

[Thorn]

Again, I'm done arguing the Unleashed scores. I'm sorry you were banned from chat to see the point that made me concede, but I'm not arguing my case any further, because I've been proven wrong. However, since you're hankering for a good debate, here you go:


Your point c states that levels with score scalping techniques should be banned. I'm extremely unsure of myself on the Sonic Advance 2 case, since the TSC scores records are 100000+ points, and that probably can't be reached in the 10-minute time limit by getting 100 from midair actions over and over. But I know Hill Top can be scalped like crazy... yet nobody's done it, presumably because nobody thinks it's competition-legal. Lava Reef and Launch Base are the precedent here with respawning enemies... the only difference here is that the numbers are large because they grow by rapid increments of 10000 instead of slow increments of 3000, but it's still possible to get an insanely large score by scalping.

Basically, what I've been trying to drive home is that there's too many "understood" conventions because we don't ever make formal statements of them, and if we made such statements, we might be able to keep some charts instead of banning them outright. The above Hill Top score scalping is a good example because nobody on TSC has done it. The whole "no tricks only possible in rare versions" thing has been an unstated rule for a while now, but the rare versions of these games have become easy to find on the Internet: imo this convention should be obsoleted, which could possibly allow for some better S3&K Times records, and would open up a Special division in Sonic 3D Blast with 28 spots to submit to. It's understood not to collect a single ring twice in Sonic 1 if they respawn, but similar stages in Unleashed are outright banned. The Hydrocity 2 bug where you don't progress to Marble Garden... does that count as a finish, or not? Is it okay to calculate a score you earned in a Time Attack mode that doesn't show the score on-screen (this was discusses already, but no ruling was ever passed)?

If you're hankering for something to argue, argue those points that haven't been resolved, instead of the one that has.

[Aitamen]

If my two cents is unwanted, feel free to delete this post:

I've always been under the assumption that scalping was legal so long as there was a time limit to hit, and that the score counter couldn't be maxed within the time limit. (LB birds + the 'botnik-standing-on-dead-thing in one of the 3D games, for examples, so far as I understand them)

As long as both points are met, it doesn't eliminate competition, imnsho.  The faster you can clear the rest of the level, the more time you have to get points.  It does become, at that point, two records for the best speedrunner, but you also have to be willing to DO such a thing, as well as being able to.

I don't think the LR thing should be banned any more than the M2 trick should be banned, or than the HT-scalping should be banned.  This applies to SAdva2 as well.

EDIT: For clarity...

[FuzZerd]

uh people HAVE score scalped in Hill Top zone, just look at the top scores.  90k in HT1? and 60k in HT2, with out a perfect bonus?  those scores arn't possible with out score scalping. (in addition to grabbing and killing most/all of the rings and enemies of course)

[Thorn]

^ ...so they have.

Okay, I don't know what's legal and what's not, and have submitted 3000+ stats. Banned.

[yoshifan]

Since it seems scalping issues have come up a lot at TSC... if we're not in a rush to get the SU360 issue resolved, can we try to develop some consistent policies for scalping issues in general?  Maybe list all of the past and present scalping issues, and then do a compare/contrast from there.

[Parax]

Are we going to come a conclusion to this one way or another anytime soon? There's been two people with 9999999 sitting on the top of the CE1N chart for a few weeks now. :(

[Luxray]

Are we going to come a conclusion to this one way or another anytime soon? There's been two people with 9999999 sitting on the top of the CE1N chart for a few weeks now. :(

Paraxade's getting jealous that he can't do it X)

[Parax]

I could do it if I wanted to, but having scores like that up doesn't do much for convincing people of the legitimacy of the charts, not to mention it'd be a total waste of time when the scores get wiped anyway.

At the very least DsS and Groudon, can you guys revert your stats?

[FuzZerd]

ban them! they never got that score! X)

[Luxray]

^actually they did not get -that- stat. they must be bannedlawl

[Aitamen]

Since it seems scalping issues have come up a lot at TSC...  [...] Maybe list all of the past and present scalping issues, and then do a compare/contrast from there.

So far as I know them, with the ones that break precedent bolded, and in italics if I'm not sure about any part of it.

S1 - Marble 2 blocks - time-capped - allowed
S2 - Hill Top Rocks - time-capped - allowed
S3 - Launch Base - can max - disallowed (I've never tried it, but I assume there's more than enough time to max the counter)
S&K - Lava Reef respawn - time capped - disallowed
S&K - sign post - can max - disallowed
SA - Hot Shelter (Time) - can max - disallowed
SA - minigame infinite - can max - disallowed (Just taking this from the competition rules page)
SA2 - Cosmic Wall - can max - disallowed
SAdva 2 - all - time-capped - allowed
Rush - trick/death "abuse" - capped w/ bonus, and the scores are still technically granted to a single life - allowed


This explains the precedent argument I had prior: I thought there was a fairly solid standpoint.  Also, there may be more, or I may be mis-citing some of these, so if someone is well-versed in these or other games, please correct this list ^_^

[Ring Rush]

Heroes scores - All score charts removed, as it was impossible to determine if current stats were scalped or not (you could get the bonus without realizing how)
SSR scores - All effected score charts removed, as it was impossible to determine if current stats were scalped or not (you could get the bonus without realizing how)

Just thought I'd add those two that you forgot, since they also set a different kind of precedent.

[FuzZerd]

actually with 10k per enemy and 1 enemy every 5 seconds the most you can get is 1,200,000 when the score maxes at 9,999,990. even with one enemy a second that would only be 6,000,000.

[EngiNerd]

I think you're close, Aitamen, but not quite.  All except for Advance 2 and Rush (neither of which have I played), the disallowment actually also concerns how difficult it is to do the trick.  Marble 2 and Hill Top require the player to backtrack and do again, and at least in Hill Top's case (haven't tried Marble) it's actually a bit of a tossup - could you do better by just getting a time bonus?  Launch Base, on the other hand, you sit in one spot and spindash for about 8 minutes or whatever.  That destroys any element of competition.  Jury's also out on the Lava Reef case, because I wasn't aware of it until recently, and haven't investigated it myself.

[flying fox]

Well if the guys won't revert their stats, then maybe I should revert my Windmill Isle Night 1 score back (even though it isn't the record anymore). I tried to do what Dss did but obviously I'm not as good as him :(

[Parax]

wi1n isn't as big a deal, as that stage doesn't have infinite score... ce1n does and leaving up scores that should be impossible up for so long doesn't reflect well on us.

[Groudon]

I removed my 9999999, but DsS wont just yet.

Until a decision is reached on the night levels without Big Mothers or Cure Masters (official name), I think the least that could be done is removal of all the levels with either (or both) of those enemies in them.

[Nextgengamer9]

I personally think they should put something in the rules about this,or atleast ban the stages that have those enemies.

[Firstkirbyever]

i say we just nuke all night scores >_>

[Zeupar]

Since it seems scalping issues have come up a lot at TSC...  [...] Maybe list all of the past and present scalping issues, and then do a compare/contrast from there.

So far as I know them, with the ones that break precedent bolded, and in italics if I'm not sure about any part of it.

S1 - Marble 2 blocks - time-capped - allowed
S2 - Hill Top Rocks - time-capped - allowed
S3 - Launch Base - can max - disallowed (I've never tried it, but I assume there's more than enough time to max the counter)
S&K - Lava Reef respawn - time capped - disallowed
S&K - sign post - can max - disallowed
SA - Hot Shelter (Time) - can max - disallowed
SA - minigame infinite - can max - disallowed (Just taking this from the competition rules page)
SA2 - Cosmic Wall - can max - disallowed
SAdva 2 - all - time-capped - allowed
Rush - trick/death "abuse" - capped w/ bonus, and the scores are still technically granted to a single life - allowed

Lava Reef's trick will be allowed because it doesn't ruin the competition; the fastest player would get the best score. Launch Base can't be maxed by comboing birds so it will be allowed as well because we need to be coherent with our principles.  If you disagree, speak now of forever hold your peace.

[FuzZerd]

don't unban the LB1 trick! that would be retarded in my opinion.  as for the LR1 trick I don't really care if thats banned or not, at least it takes some skill to keep combo.

[Thorn]

While I dread seeing that trick legalized, it's perfectly consistent with our other rulings to make it legal, and it doesn't cause infinite scores. It should be done, even if I don't want it. :(